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Клубове Дирене Регистрация Кой е тук Въпроси Списък Купувам / Продавам 12:06 28.04.24 
Клубове / Наука / Хуманитарни науки / История Всички теми Следваща тема Пълен преглед*
Информация за клуба
Тема По темата [re: »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™]
Автор »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™ (Тортурач)
Публикувано03.02.05 10:41  



2004-10-13

Joseph Skulj P. Eng.
11 Westacres Dr.
Toronto ON, Canada M6M2B7
jskulj@hotmail.com

Prof. Florin Curta
Department of History
University of Florida

Re: The Making of the Slavs

Dear Prof. Curta:

The Making of the Slavs-Will this book with its eye-catching title tell us about the origin of the ~40 % of the population of Europe who are occupying more than half of its land mass? Will it reveal to us how, when and where they originated? Will we find out why they speak so many sister languages and are known by so many names? What were the mechanisms that caused this spread; how much can be attributed to elite dominance and how much to other factors?

The origin of the Slavs is relatively unclear, but the title of your book suggests that you have found the answer. Recently I ordered your book The Making of the Slavs, through U. of T. bookstore, (since they did not have it in stock), hoping that the information you compiled would give me a historian's insight into the linguistic and genetic origin of the Slavs and why they now represent ~40% of the population of Europe and occupy more than half of the continent. I was also hoping to learn, why even in the 2nd cent. A.D., one third of all the Roman military bases were located in the northern Balkans.

Now, on reading The Making of the Slavs, I find that I have been misled by the title of the book. While the book does provide valuable detailed historical information, specially, from the Arabic and Greek sources regarding the Slavs during the historical period, when they fought against the Roman Empire, the super-power of that time both on land and sea, it does not adequately address their genetic and linguistic origins. You mention the building and renewing of the Roman forts in the Balkans-"eight times more than in the entire Asian part of the Empire". This is reminiscent of the 20th cent. Cold War armaments between the 2 super powers of the day. Since the Roman Empire did not spring into existence overnight, it is reasonable to assume, in the light of historical data you provide, that Slavs have a pre-historical origin. Based on archaeological evidence, scholars such as Alinei and Renfrew posit that there is a considerable continuity in Europe, from the time of the first farmers and that there is no reason to think in terms of large-scale movements of people in association of the spread of metallurgical practices. There is also genetic and linguistic evidence that indicates a pre-historic origin of the Slavs.

Genetic studies indicate that populations of Europe, including the Slavs, were present for millennia before the 6th cent. A.D., in the regions that they now occupy. For instance, Richards M. and 36 others (2000), in their studies of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), conclude that (i) the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Paleolithic, (ii) there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) 20,000 years ago, from which derives the largest fraction of surviving lineages, (iii) the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans. They also estimate that from the Bronze Age to the recent time, the migration events brought the following percentages of mtDNA lineages to various regions of Europe: Alps-6.9%, Southeastern Europe-8.2%, Northeastern Europe-5.5%. And (iv) there has been a substantial back-migration into the Near East. Eastern Europe appears to have been the main source of the back-migration, also the Philistine migration, and the slave trade. In addition, there were also the desertions from the Byzantine army that you point out in your book.

Vernesi C. and 12 others (2004) in their recent study of the mtDNA lineages of the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans and the Veneti, provide the mitochondrial sequences present in these skeletal remains. Thus they make it possible to compare, genetically, the present day populations with the Etruscan and Veneti upper classes, since those tombs typically belonged to social elites.

Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) with their mtDNA study of Bosnians and Slovenians make it possible to compare genetically these extant populations with the ancient populations of Etruria and Venetia. Surprisingly, 4 out of 5 (80%) of the mtDNA lineages found in the skeletal remains from Adria, which was in the Roman province of Venetia et Histria, are also found in the present day Bosnians and Slovenians. This, along with other studies, is an indication that there has been a genetic continuity for at least 2,500 years, between the people of the Balkans and the peoples of the northeastern Italy.

The research into the paternally inherited Y-chromosomes of the various populations gives the researchers another insight into pre-historical events. In a recent study of the Y-chromosome haplogroup I (Hg I), Rootsi S. and 45 others (2004), find it in Macedonians (northern Greece) at 30 %, Slovenians at 38 %, Croats at 38 %, Bosnians at 42 %, Poles at 18 %, Ukrainians at 22 % and Russian (Cossacks ) at 23 %. They conclude that the Hg I subhaplogroup I1b2* in the extant populations, arose in Europe before Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). It is at the highest concentration in the northwestern Balkans at ~40%, but it extends from just west of the Italian Apennines to Eastern Europe, and it probably diffused after the LGM from a homeland in Eastern Europe or the Balkans. The high diversity of these lineages in Bosnia supports the view that they may have been present in the Balkans before the LGM. Semino O. and 16 others (2000), propose that this lineage originated in Europe in descendents of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago.

Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) note that another Y-chromosome genetic marker Hg R1a is also present in Slavic speaking populations at a high frequency 30%-50% (Poles, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks). Rosser ZH., and 62 others (2000) quantify this frequency: in Poles at 54 %, Russians-47 %, Belorussians-39 %, Ukrainians-30 %, Czechs-38 % and Slovaks-47 %. It is also present at a relatively high frequency in the Slavic speaking populations in the Balkans: Croats-29%, Slovenians-37%, Macedonians-35%. The Bulgarians are an exception at only 12%. Semino et al. interpret the distribution of this haplotype as a signature of expansion from isolated nucleus in the present Ukraine, following LGM. The lineage appears to have been present in Europe since the Paleolithic times.

Belyaeva O. and 7 others (2003), based on mtDNA studies, propose a central European origin of the Eastern Slavs.

Based on the genetic data available, there is evidence that Slavs developed primarily from two populations who sought refuge during the LGM, one in the Balkans and the other in the Ukraine, and who expanded subsequently from their climatic sanctuaries. The Apennine Mountains appear to be the westerly limit and the Indian sub-continent the easterly limit of this expansion.

Qamar R. and 8 others (2003) note that four out of five frequent haplogroups in Pakistan, which together make up 79% of the total population are also frequent in western Asia and in Europe, but not in China or Japan. The frequency rises to 86% in the Pathan and Sindhi populations who are Indo-European speakers and where the dominant haplogroup is Ra1 at 47%, which is similar in frequency to Slovak and Russian populations.

Bamshad M., and 17 others (2001), in "Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations" conclude that for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians and the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being more similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. Generally, haplogroup Ra1 is the most frequent amongst the speakers of Slavic languages and their cousin languages, the Indic languages. The Slovenian language in the most westerly Slavic country has ~80% of its vocabulary similar to its sister Russian language in sound and meaning. In addition, Slovenian has lexical and grammatical similarities to the cousin Indic languages in particular to the Vedic Sanskrit, where ~20% of the lexicon is similar in sound and meaning.

This grammatical similarity between Sanskrit and Slovenian is well illustrated by the conjugation of the verb, "to be":

English Sanskrit Slovenian Russian Hindi 

1. p. sing. I am asmi sem x x (hu:n)
2. p. sing. you are asi si x x (hain)
3. p. sing. he is asti x (je) yest x (hai)
1. p. dual svah sva x x
2. p. dual sthah sta x x
3. p. dual stah sta x x
1. p. plural we are smah smo x x (hain)
2. p. plural you are stha ste x x (hain)
3. p. plural they are santi so x x (hain)



It is anomalous that the present day Slovenian retains so many similarities with the Sanskrit, in particular with the Vedic Sanskrit, despite the wide separation due to time and geography. It should be noted that Slovenian retains many lexical and grammatical similarities with Sanskrit no longer present in Indian and some Slavic languages as can be seen from the example above.

It is rather unfortunate, that the book does not address more thoroughly the origins of the Slavs in the light of the historical information about them in Europe that you amassed and also in light of the linguistic and genetic similarities with the people of the Indus valley, particularly the linguistic similarity with the Vedic Sanskrit and the more recent genetic studies of the Etruscan and Venetic skeletal remains in the west and also the 2500 year old Scytho-Siberian skeletal remains in the east. Perhaps, you are planning a sequel to the book, where you will address the pre-historical origin of the Slavs, not just one name and will incorporate the results of the latest archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies into your hypotheses, using a multi disciplinary approach. Hopefully, you will use the historical records as a guide into pre-history to interpret the results of the current archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies.

Yours truly,

Joseph Skulj P. Eng.



Цялата тема
ТемаАвторПубликувано
* Произходът на славяните »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   02.02.05 17:10
. * Re: Произходът на славяните Per Per   02.02.05 18:38
. * Re: Произходът на славяните kalinka72   02.02.05 19:11
. * Re: Произходът на славяните »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   02.02.05 19:18
. * Re: Произходът на славяните kalinka72   02.02.05 19:53
. * Българска група езици Vremen   02.02.05 22:32
. * Re: Българска група езици Ziezi   02.02.05 23:13
. * Re: Българска група езици komita   03.02.05 10:16
. * Re: Българска група езици XOPЪ+БATЪ/XOPЪ+BATЪ   03.02.05 19:45
. * Re: Българска група езици komita   03.02.05 20:00
. * Re: Българска група езици kalinka72   03.02.05 20:44
. * Re: Българска група езици Ziezi   04.02.05 07:41
. * Re: Българска група езици kalinka72   02.02.05 23:29
. * Re: Българска група езици »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   02.02.05 23:53
. * Re: Българска група езици kalinka72   03.02.05 00:36
. * Re: Българска група езици »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   03.02.05 01:18
. * Re: Българска група езици kalinka72   03.02.05 21:37
. * Re: Българска група езици »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   03.02.05 22:29
. * Re: Българска група езици Vremen   03.02.05 04:34
. * Re: Българска група езици kalinka72   03.02.05 21:13
. * Re: Българска група езици Vremen   03.02.05 23:28
. * Re: Българска група езици Per Per   04.02.05 08:39
. * Re: Българска група езици Per Per   03.02.05 13:51
. * Re: Ако задам следващия Arient   03.02.05 18:28
. * Re: Ако задам следващия komita   04.02.05 10:33
. * Re: В смисъла, в който питаш Arient   04.02.05 14:11
. * Re: В смисъла, в който питаш oros   05.02.05 02:03
. * Re: В смисъла, в който питаш XOPЪ+БATЪ/XOPЪ+BATЪ   05.02.05 11:07
. * Re: В смисъла, в който питаш oros   05.02.05 16:24
. * Re: В смисъла, в който питаш XOPЪ+БATЪ/XOPЪ+BATЪ   05.02.05 18:55
. * Re: В смисъла, в който питаш oros   06.02.05 04:50
. * Re: Произходът на славяните Лил   03.02.05 00:34
. * Re: Произходът на славяните kalinka72   03.02.05 00:52
. * Re: Произходът на славяните Per Per   03.02.05 14:06
. * Re: Произходът на славяните »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   03.02.05 01:14
. * Re: Произходът на славяните Craig   03.02.05 01:55
. * Re: Произходът на славяните tulsanew   03.02.05 02:25
. * Re: Произходът на славяните the_bomb   03.02.05 10:28
. * Re: Произходът на славяните »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   03.02.05 10:20
. * По темата »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   03.02.05 10:41
. * Re: По темата komita   03.02.05 11:01
. * Re: По темата »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   03.02.05 11:33
. * Re: Произходът на славяните Craig   03.02.05 14:06
. * Re: Произходът на славяните »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   03.02.05 14:18
. * Re: Произходът на славяните Лил   03.02.05 10:49
. * Re: Произходът на славяните »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   03.02.05 11:35
. * Re: Произходът на славяните Fallen_Angel   03.02.05 17:07
. * Ти пък какво си преглътнал? »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   03.02.05 17:38
. * Re: Ти пък какво си преглътнал? Fallen_Angel   03.02.05 18:11
. * Този постинг би трябвало tulsanew   03.02.05 13:25
. * Re: Произходът на славяните »№*ы{ђ}lЏ3©®™   02.02.05 19:20
. * Re: Произходът на славяните iwan4o   02.02.05 20:07
. * Re: Наистина има Arient   03.02.05 19:33
. * Re: Наистина има Per Per   03.02.05 22:56
. * Re: Кой език на кого е майка и Arient   04.02.05 11:24
. * Re: Произходът на славяните iwan4o   02.02.05 19:48
. * защо ти е никифор? д-p Oxбoли   02.02.05 20:00
. * Re: защо ти е никифор? iwan4o   02.02.05 22:26
. * Re: защо ти е никифор? XOPЪ+БATЪ/XOPЪ+BATЪ   02.02.05 22:50
. * Ako така лесно са се "пославянчили"... д-p Oxбoли   03.02.05 07:45
. * Re: защо ти е никифор? Per Per   03.02.05 13:47
. * СКЛАВИНИЯН ТРИСКЕЯН=славяно-траки? д-p Oxбoли   03.02.05 15:26
. * Re: защо ти е никифор? iwan4o   03.02.05 20:28
. * Re: СЛАВЯНСКА РЕЛИГИЯ Per Per   04.02.05 12:51
. * Re: Произходът на слЯвЯните? СлАвЯни нема! XOPЪ+БATЪ/XOPЪ+BATЪ   02.02.05 20:03
. * Re: Произходът на славяните loshiat   02.02.05 21:18
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