До Laci

--Previous Message-- : Laci : My "little" knowledge of history is quite : "encyclopaedic" (sic) in comparison to 99% of people : writing on Macedonian forums (including yourself. **i can't speak for others but perhaps you are right about me. i am not interested in memorizing dates and numbers. i prefer to read what is not written and to make my own conclusions about what could have actually happened, how and why. Да, ти винаги четеш между редовете, затова и нищо не си научил, няма и да научиш. А и май не си титан на мисълта, затова не може да се каже, че изводите ти са верни. : You and your mates take information from questionable Macedonian : sources, IGNORE objective sources as "agents of Greek : interests" or "paid by the Greeks" and state : you have "AN EXPERT KNOWLEDGE" of history of : Macedonia. **i don't know about others. as for myself i do not claim to be any expert in history. i don't even care about history. in recent months i became a little more interested because of the neighbourhood. То си личи, че не ти е пукало за историята. Много си бос, да знаеш! : I have accepted that the Greek government is quite silly with : respect to some of its policies towards Macedonians. : I have accepted that I may not be "pure" Greek. For all : I know, my roots may well be Greek, Turkish, Arabic, Venetian, : Slavic, Albanian, Vlach, Armenian, Jewish or a combination. : i have accepted that you are Macedonian and that your country is : Macedonia. : I have accepted that there were MANY crimes committed by Greeks : against the Slavs ie Metaxas, Papagos, etc..... **OK. tell others about it. the more Greeks accept this the better for all of us. : What YOU need to do is OPEN your eyes and accept soem realities : ie : Some of Tito's policies were ALSO quite silly; **who says that Tito was a perfect man? but which policies do you have in mind? : You are NOT pure Macedonian - you have just as much chance as me : if not more of being Slavic, Albanian, turkish, Arabic, : Jewish, Roma, etc.... **who says I am a pure anything. very few people can trace their origins back to more than about 200 years. what happened before in a typical pedigree could be anyone's guess. we are talking about probabilities, statistics and ideas here. as for myself, some of my supergrandgrandgradfathers may well have been a Turk or even Bulgarian. but most likely he was a Macedonian. Той ти говори за един македонец, то му отговаряш за друг... Значи прадядо ти може да е бил турчин, ДОРИ българин. Браво бе, откога предпочиташ той да е бил турчин пред българин? Слепият ви антибългарски комплекс е направо смешен!!! : You have to accept that the Slavs did MANY documented attrocities : against the Greeks **things strange things happen in wars. of course there were attrocities on both sides. but you did more, and not only during the wars. and the post WW2 Macedonian governments did : many attrocities against Macedonians who wanted to claim their : Bulgarian bloodlines, : etc..... I can go on and on.... **list some. who told you that? the Bulgarians perhaps. if you dig deeper you will find that most of the attrocities were Macedonians who did not feel comfortable within Yugoslavia. some of them were branded Bulgaromani etc by the communists so that it would appear more justifiable what happened to them. if somebody was sent to prison because he wanted an independent Macedonia the majority would find it unacceptable. but if he was branded a Bugaroman it was perhaps not that bad. Ти винаги отричаш очевидното. Ти ли по-добре знаеш какви са били или самите те, когато се наричаха българи. И това че искаха независима Македония да не ги прави автоматично небългари? Нямаш никакви аргументи, затова винаги се опираш на догадки. : Laci, I think you need to become a bit more open minded and you : need to accept that not everybody will agree with you and that : you may be wrong on some issues. **I think i am more open minded than you think. you see i took for granted Tito's policy that Macedonians are pure Slavs and that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek. now i don't. !?! You will achieve NOTHING : having a forum that ONLY has what YOU want to hear on it. **has anybody banned you? for what? of course you can write anything you like so long as you obey the rules. the purpose of that forum is not for people to have fun by exchanging insults. You : will NOT learn anything. **teach me if you can. maybe in the process you will learn something yourself even though you claim to know the encyclopedias by heart. you should know that encyclopedias are also written by people and are therefore not perfect. : regards : Heracles : Много верни неща ти казва този човек. Защо се правиш на по-голям патриот от нас - българите македонци? Без да прозвучи като личностна нападка, нямам основания да мисля, че произхождаш от патриотичен род, от това, което вече написа за себе си. Престани да си на всяка манджа меродия, при това с едноредови и смешни аргументи - напр. Т. Александров се страхувал (!?) да се нарече македонец, трябвало някъде да живее и т.н. и т.н. Хей :-) с теб може да се говори, но отваряй си повече очите и за другото мнение.

Abe ja gledai tuka **list some. who told you that? the Bulgarians perhaps. if you dig deeper you will find that most of the attrocities were Macedonians who did not feel comfortable within Yugoslavia. some of them were branded Bulgaromani etc by the communists so that it would appear more justifiable what happened to them. if somebody was sent to prison because he wanted an independent Macedonia the majority would find it unacceptable. but if he was branded a Bugaroman it was perhaps not that bad. Znachi izliza che v bivsha Jugoslavia nai-sigurnoto sredstvo da unishtozhish niakogo spored Laci e da go narechesh Bugaroman dori i da ne e. Ami ako e, togava kakvo li stava? Obarnete vnimanie na Justifiable - izliza che da si Bulgarin ili Bulgaroman e dostatuchno osnovanie za da ti vidiat smetkata. A posle varvi da dokazvash che Bulgarite v RoM si zhiveli idealno. Laci pak edno prikazva drugo misli treto se opitva da dokazva.

Da be a az kato mu razpraviam che v milata mu tatkovina si beshe uglavno prestaplenie toi mi vika che ne si spomnial takova neshto. Mdaa Laci ti pak neshto oplete koncite. Kato ti vikam che s boi sa vi pravili makedonci, ti se darpash, a ot druga strana razpraviash che balgarite v Iugoslavia gi unishtojavali, e neshto sam si protivorechish i neti e za parvi pat prez poslednite tri dni. Ama davai tova samo dokazva mnenieto mi za teb che si dosta tap, dori za makedonist.

abe ti mnogu si oshtar ama pak ne razbirash. jas ne se sekjavam za vo moe vreme deka bilo prestap da si Bugarin. toa e fakt a ti kako saksh veruvaj. porano kako bilo ne mozham da kazham so sigurnost no znam deka site koi nastradaa za Makedonija vie sakate da gi krstite Bugari. ne si protiovrecham jas tuku ti ne razbirash. as usual. i batali toa navredite. mislish deka jas ne mozham da pishuvam takvi raboti. jas sum premnogu tap za Makedonist ili si ti premnogu pameten za Bugarin.

: Laci : My "little" knowledge of history is quite : "encyclopaedic" (sic) in comparison to 99% of people : writing on Macedonian forums (including yourself. **i can't speak for others but perhaps you are right about me. i am not interested in memorizing dates and numbers. i prefer to read what is not written and to make my own conclusions about what could have actually happened, how and why. Да, ти винаги четеш между редовете, затова и нищо не си научил, няма и да научиш. А и май не си титан на мисълта, затова не може да се каже, че изводите ти са верни. ***a ti shto si nauchil? toa shto drugi sakale da mislish, demek kako titan. : You and your mates take information from questionable Macedonian : sources, IGNORE objective sources as "agents of Greek : interests" or "paid by the Greeks" and state : you have "AN EXPERT KNOWLEDGE" of history of : Macedonia. **i don't know about others. as for myself i do not claim to be any expert in history. i don't even care about history. in recent months i became a little more interested because of the neighbourhood. То си личи, че не ти е пукало за историята. Много си бос, да знаеш! ***a shto mislish ti? treba site so istorija da se zanimavame. koij kje raboti. samo ne sum bos jas. za tebe sum boss sigurno. : I have accepted that the Greek government is quite silly with : respect to some of its policies towards Macedonians. : I have accepted that I may not be "pure" Greek. For all : I know, my roots may well be Greek, Turkish, Arabic, Venetian, : Slavic, Albanian, Vlach, Armenian, Jewish or a combination. : i have accepted that you are Macedonian and that your country is : Macedonia. : I have accepted that there were MANY crimes committed by Greeks : against the Slavs ie Metaxas, Papagos, etc..... **OK. tell others about it. the more Greeks accept this the better for all of us. : What YOU need to do is OPEN your eyes and accept soem realities : ie : Some of Tito's policies were ALSO quite silly; **who says that Tito was a perfect man? but which policies do you have in mind? : You are NOT pure Macedonian - you have just as much chance as me : if not more of being Slavic, Albanian, turkish, Arabic, : Jewish, Roma, etc.... **who says I am a pure anything. very few people can trace their origins back to more than about 200 years. what happened before in a typical pedigree could be anyone's guess. we are talking about probabilities, statistics and ideas here. as for myself, some of my supergrandgrandgradfathers may well have been a Turk or even Bulgarian. but most likely he was a Macedonian. Той ти говори за един македонец, то му отговаряш за друг... Значи прадядо ти може да е бил турчин, ДОРИ българин. Браво бе, откога предпочиташ той да е бил турчин пред българин? Слепият ви антибългарски комплекс е направо смешен!!! ***tolku ti razbirash Angliski. toj mi se obrakja mene a zbori za site nas kolektivno. a jas muu kazhuvam deka malkumina znajat koj im bil pradedo pred 200 godini. koj ti garantira tebe deka nemash ich turska krv vo sebe ili nekoja druga. kolku generacii nanazad znaesh za tvojata familija. i ne bidi tolku glup. ako ne razbirash Angliski ne istrchuvaj bez nekoj da ti prevede. jas ne pretpochitam nishto. samo kazhuvam deka nekoj dedo mozhe da bil Turchin ili Bugarin ili bilo shto. slep si ti shto ni precizno napishanoto ne mozhesh da go razberesh. kakov antibugarski komplex be kakov komplex? : You have to accept that the Slavs did MANY documented attrocities : against the Greeks **things strange things happen in wars. of course there were attrocities on both sides. but you did more, and not only during the wars. and the post WW2 Macedonian governments did : many attrocities against Macedonians who wanted to claim their : Bulgarian bloodlines, : etc..... I can go on and on.... **list some. who told you that? the Bulgarians perhaps. if you dig deeper you will find that most of the attrocities were Macedonians who did not feel comfortable within Yugoslavia. some of them were branded Bulgaromani etc by the communists so that it would appear more justifiable what happened to them. if somebody was sent to prison because he wanted an independent Macedonia the majority would find it unacceptable. but if he was branded a Bugaroman it was perhaps not that bad. Ти винаги отричаш очевидното. Ти ли по-добре знаеш какви са били или самите те, когато се наричаха българи. И това че искаха независима Македония да не ги прави автоматично небългари? Нямаш никакви аргументи, затова винаги се опираш на догадки. **kakvi argumenti sakash? ne vikam deka nemalo po nekoj takov shto se chuvstvuval Bugarin no povekejto bile Makedonci. ima ushte zhivi od tie lugje, nekoi od niv sum zapoznal. : Laci, I think you need to become a bit more open minded and you : need to accept that not everybody will agree with you and that : you may be wrong on some issues. **I think i am more open minded than you think. you see i took for granted Tito's policy that Macedonians are pure Slavs and that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek. now i don't. !?! ***koj ne razbira kje se chudi. You will achieve NOTHING : having a forum that ONLY has what YOU want to hear on it. **has anybody banned you? for what? of course you can write anything you like so long as you obey the rules. the purpose of that forum is not for people to have fun by exchanging insults. You : will NOT learn anything. **teach me if you can. maybe in the process you will learn something yourself even though you claim to know the encyclopedias by heart. you should know that encyclopedias are also written by people and are therefore not perfect. : regards : Heracles : Много верни неща ти казва този човек. *** da, za tebe, bidejki toa sakash da slushnesh. jas mislam deka nishto ne mi kazhuva. Защо се правиш на по-голям патриот от нас - българите македонци? ***kade primeti ti deka jas se pravam nekakov patriot, pa ushte i pogolem***Без да прозвучи като личностна нападка, нямам основания да мисля, че произхождаш от патриотичен род, от това, което вече написа за себе си.***nemalo megju moite partizani a imalo komiti, i shto e vazhno od kakov rod sum jas? mozhe dedo mi da e bil edno a jas da sum drugo*** Престани да си на всяка манджа меродия, при това с едноредови и смешни аргументи - напр. Т. Александров се страхувал (!?) да се нарече македонец, трябвало някъде да живее и т.н. и т.н. ***abe ti si genie za razbiranje. bash taka li sum rekol? i shto mislish ti ako TA kazhuvashe deka e Makedonec kako tie od OMO Ilinden, demek kako mene, mislish kje mu dozvolea da deluva vo Bugarija? mozhe toj i da ne se plashel no sigurno ne bilo taka lesno. ako ne bilo lesno za nego zamisli kako mozhelo da bide za drugite. ako denes ne e lesno, porano bilo ushte poteshko. e toa e i edna od prochinite zoshto ti se mislish za Pirinski Bugarin. samo mene toa ne mi smeta i jas gi prifakjam site Makedonci takvi kakvi shto se. Хей :-) с теб може да се говори, но отваряй си повече очите и за другото мнение. ***pa jas gi otvaram i zatoa sum tuka. samo kolku vie gi otvarate. eve, ti na primer, nekoi moi misli gi komentirash zatoa shto pogreshno gi razbirash i me terash da si go gubam vremeto, moeto a i tvoeto.

"it would appear more justifiable " ti barem razbirash angliski podbro. ne vikam jas deka bilo justifiable. sigurno ne bilo opravdano. no vlastite sepak vodele smetka za toa shto kje pomisli narodot. vo toj smisol im bilo pozhelno da gi zhigosaat kako neprijateli za da na narodot mu izgleda poprifatlivo. dobro a poznato e deka vo toj period Bugarija ne beshe bash omilena megju narodot od razbirlivi prichini. neznam zoshto tolku galama digate okolu ova. toa e ednostavno. to sum up. imalo i Bugari megju zhrtvite no povekjeto ne bile. i pogreshno bilo bilo koj da nastrada za bilo kakvi idei.

Koi vlasti be? Makedonskite li? Ti maitap li si pravish be Laci. Nali vashite vlasti gi vidohme kakva vlast imat. Ja gledai samo Chento, kakva vlast kakvo chudo! a tova nakraia imalo i Bulgari mezhdu zhertvite no povecheto bili Makedonci - ti nekakva razlika li pravish? Ami ako biaha videli smetkata na Goceto/ te i bez tova s kostite mu tochno tova napraviha/ ama nego kato kakav shteshe da go broish kakva zhertva - Makedonec, Bulgarin, Bugaroman, Velikobulgarin, agent na Bulgaria, Makedonski prodazhnik, v kakva kategoria shte go turish ti nego. Ami za ostanalite deto i imenata ne im znaesh za tjah kakvi kategorii si predvidil - chisti Makedonci, ne tolkova chisti, mrasni i ovratitelno mrasni - Bulgarizirani. Bre ti mnogo dobre pochna da gi razlichavsh Makedoncite ot Bulgarite. Evala. Kak uspia be Laci. Ja kazhi tainata?

**kakvi argumenti sakash? ne vikam deka nemalo po nekoj takov shto se chuvstvuval Bugarin no povekejto bile Makedonci. ima ushte zhivi od tie lugje, nekoi od niv sum zapoznal. Lele pak li shte lazhesh kato ciganin. Kazhi gi koi sa tezi povekjeto deto sa se chuvstvali Makedonci - pone edin ot tia vav VMRo imalo li e? Ili pak do Misirkov opria ama nali i toi e Bulgarin be Laci. Znachi spored Laci cialoto VMRO pljus celia intelektualen elit na Makedonia deto se chuvstvali Bulgari bili samo niakolko a inache povekjeto/ sigurno seljaniata/ bili Makedonci. I akonapravim edin ot vashite ljubimi popisi da ne se okazhe che pak shte stignem do tvoite rodnini - zhivoto dokazatelstvo ne samo che imalo makedonci no i che te bili povekjeto. Ei goliama roda goliamo neshto. Laci kazhi ja taia mnogobroina tvoja familia. Da ja zapishem v uchebnicite che da znaiat horata che i takiva zhivotni e imalo na sveta , demek ne sa bili vsichkite Makedonci kato komitite na VMRO. Imalo i po-golemi makedonci ot tjah ama ostanali na zakrito.

prochitaj shto pishuva Gashev, na primer. zoshto mislish deka vie povekje znaete. toa ne beshe mnogu odamna.

za koi komiti zborish be. vo 1944 nemashe takvi. a i tie pred toa ne bea Bugari.

E kak da ne sa Bulgari. Bulgari sa mnogo si zakasnial da im obiasniavash kakvi sa bili. A za 44 e togava ne e imalo komiti. Togava imashe kom... ama drugi raboti.

E sega da cheta, ti kazhi tainata kak da gi razlichavame. Mozhe li chovek koito se smiata za Bulgarin da e Makedonec i to nacionalen geroi i ako mozhe kakvo izliza - vseki Bulgarin v Makedonia e Makedonec bez nachenie kakvo misli po vaprosa. Ami che vie mnogo tochna definicia za Makedonci imate. Vseki Bulgarin roden v Makedonia stava avtomatichno Makedonec. A posle se sardite kato vi kazhem che ste Bulgari. Ami kato ne ni shtete ochistete si istoriata ot Bulgari che da vidim kakvo shte ostane nakraia da mu se radvate. Nali imalo i takiva deto ne bili Bulgari i imali makedonsko samochuvstvo - e ot kakvo vi e strah togava - vse neshto shte ostane sled tazi operacia po prochistvane na makedonskata istoria ot Bulgarski elementi. takmo shte bade chisto makedonska, etnichki makedonska istoria bez nikakvi primesi. Gordost za Makedonskiot narod.

" No niakoi ne obichat da znaiat za svoia balgarski rod, a se obrashtat kam chujda kultura i chujd ezik, i ne se grijat za svoia balgarski ezik.......O , nerazumni i iurode! Zashto se sramuvash da se narechesh balgarin, i ne chetesh i ne govorish na svoia ezik.... Ot celia slavianski rod nai-slavni sa bili balgarite , parvo te sa imali care, parvo te sa imali patriarh, parvo te sa se krastili i nai mnogo zemia te sa vladeeli.... i parvite slavianski svetci prosiali ot balgarskia rod i ezik.... I za tova balgarite imat svidetelstvo ot mnogo istorii, zashtoto vsichko e istina za balgarite kakto i spomenah." Iz "Istoria slavianobalgarskaia" napisana prez 1762 g. ot Paisii Hiledarski - pirinec i makedonec, a nai-veche BALGARIN.