Re: Саакашвили си призна! / Я! Архивите са живи / Горещи точки: войната в Южна Осетия

M. Saakashvili.
Thank you, Mr. Nika. I want to tell you, that first of all, defeat and victory are evaluated by the end of the fight. Georgia’s fight is not over; Georgia’s fight is going on and will last till victory, until Georgia exists, until Georgia has a democratic system, has the Army and the society, like we have, has Armed Forces and economics and we’ll be a successful society, successful country that will reach a peaceful development of the country. That is why our historical instinct as a result of the entrance of conquerors like this was one and the same: the statehood of Georgia stopped its existence for long time. I do not know how many examples were in Georgian history when 80 000 troops were mobilized at our borders, tens of thousands – intervened, I do not know what armored equipment can be compared with, since there was nothing like this in the Middle Ages, there were no aircrafts. Of course, if we imagine, approximately, taking everything into consideration, it is as if hundreds of thousands of Mongols intervened Georgia. And of course, always, in cases like this, Georgian statehood stopped to exist. We reached to save the most important thing: our social integrity, our democratic system, our statehood. Main strategic goals of our adversary are to defeat Georgian Government, full control over Georgian territory, destruction of the Georgian democratic system, control over oil pipelines and destruction of the Army. These goals are not achieved. They also say that they are not achieved, this is not my speculation. Listen well to what they are speaking in Russian Duma, how do they evaluate negatively, including effectiveness of their troops, and I think, they themselves, their comments express everything. Now I want to say, unfortunately, this is the situation when there is little reason to be calm. And that is why our response is maximum cooperation with all our counterparts, maximum enforcement of all our democratic systems, survival of Georgian economics and preparation for peaceful integration with Georgia. I want to say that the Georgian Government not only is not down, I use this terminology, I gathered the Georgian Government on the 12th and I told them: whoever wants to leave, you can leave, whoever wants to take away the families, I do not advice, but you can, I stay here, indeed. And then they brought it in, the list circulated here, who has left and where. Nobody went anywhere. You have carefully checked it and you saw it, except those who were sent on mission to the neighboring countries with different economic issues and absolutely specific economic and administrative tasks. All the salaries, all the pensions were issued on time. We managed to keep banking system. Supply system, despite the fact that Georgia was cut into two parts was kept. There happened a very interesting fact, I was telling you about Akhalkaki, as a matter of fact, we used to have a problem with controlling Georgia-Armenia border on the Akhalkaki span and we individually sent fuel there through Poti to provide fuel and possibility of transportation to the population. But we see that this fuel disappears soon and then, local, and we could not understand what happened. Then the local population blocked the border and said: "Do not take out our fuel across the border!” and across the border was Armenia, that was poor and I did not like it at all. But the local population said strictly, this is our identity, our country, our border and the border must be controlled. So, the small details like these, that we never spoke about but they speak on their own. That is why I think, that we, I have told you that on September …do not believe that, well, let’s say, that we are winners. Because every my day starts with hard thoughts about, that and I do not overstate and do not make myself pity, with hell feelings about, that major part of Georgian territory, the most favorite part for me, the most favorite part is occupied by foreign conquerors. I, you know it well, Mr. Paata attended there, I went to Zugdidi on September 9, went there not only to encourage people, despite the fact that at that time it was serious concern there already. My first instinct and decision were to go up to Upper Abkhazia, to Kodori gorge by the road the we built there and to lead the gorge defence. Unfortunately I was late. Unfortunately Russians were coming over the river Inguri and unfortunately this road was cut for me and I had to go back to Tbilisi by a common vehicle. Because it was impossible to drive escorted already, and I remember it well and that feeling, I had on my way and … how patrol. Because everybody came from the sea, including Azeries, Armenians, those, who went to those countries and, well, our citizens as well, who went to Tbilisi from the sea. The biggest danger was on that road. Because Russian bomb launchers bombed that road. But this was a surprising view, that the Police was there, and traffic jams were there, at some places on Rikoti, in Shrosha and in Roki tunnel and some other places and they and aircrafts launched bombs and fortunately many of them fall into gorge, but I remember, on the one hand faces of people, they dismounted vehicles, we were locked in the traffic jam with others and they looked up into the sky, not with fear, but with surprise and I remember imperturbability of the patrol, they did not pay attention to the bombs and continued their activities of regulating the traffic, the country like this cannot be considered defeated, but the feeling of helplessness, that I stood there, the elected President of these people with my car in the traffic jam and I could not do anything to protect these people from the danger. There is a feeling of a very big humiliation, very big tragedy and until this threat exists, until these results are not corrected, I think that it will be impossible to speak about any success in any field, about any serious, big success. But at the same time I repeat once again, until Georgia’s heart beats, until the flag of Georgia waves in the Capital, until state structures of Georgia are functional and until the society is united and consolidated, Georgia will not be defeated. I want also to tell you that the strategic goal probably on this stage of one part of our adversary … is what they told to the State Secretary of America in days of August. Full ruin of Georgia. What does full ruin of Georgia mean, it means that in the Capital of Georgia, Tbilisi a marionette Government will sit, Georgia will be divided into different separatist regions or invent these regions, if they do not exist. To create some more so called states within Georgia, to prevent spread of Eropeisation Western democracy virus spread in their direction forever. In our post Soviet space we have to understand, what problems we have and what type of competition do we have with Russia now and we’ll speak about it afterwards. We have an ideological problem, not because we have an ideology, we build the life, but the fact that we build an uncorrupt, democratic, transparent society, the fact that it is possible to have reviews like this in this society, causes in them, in part of this establishment, cause a dreadful allergy, because they think that if it was successful here, tomorrow common Russian citizens will ask a question, why cannot it happen like this in Russia, why cannot it be that "GAI” does not get bribes, why cannot it be in Russia, that you can make business freely, without any pressure, why there cannot be debate, reviews like this, why there cannot be a seriously open society in Russia, why cannot Russia move to Europe. Until it was only Estonia, now Russians said, these strange Northern people, with their Protestant religion, with their own rules, well they are not a big thing, when their beloved, but still an addition, Georgia, the country of the same faith turned out to be possible to establish a European type real contemporary society, based on traditional values, and also with our … return to our traditional European roots, this was a killing challenge. That is why until this idea is alive, until this idea is successful, if we continue our revival, if we continue our development, they will be defeated and we’ll consolidate and we’ll be winners. So this is my broad answer to this question. Today Georgia is in the existential fight and the result, speaking about the result is still early.

Chairman.
Mrs. Khatuna Gogorishvili, please.

K. Gogorishvili.
Mr. President, I have such question, did this war delay in time restoration of the territorial integrity of Georgia, i. e. return of Abkhazia and Ossetia and whether integration is delayed in time and a specific question, that is kept discussing in the press and it is asked to you, Akhalgori, the status of today’s Akhalgori, is not it a some secret part of so called Sarkozy agreement, that was not known by the society. Thank you.

M. Saakashvili.
First, what about the first question, it is not a simple question. Today the situation is fundamentally changed. If earlier Russia played a peace-loving and formally recognized Georgian territorial integrity but never spoke about it specifically, that recognizes it, simply it never said that considers it as different separated territories, the fact was that in conditions of this peacekeeping-occupational regime these territories were torn away from Georgia and the World would appreciate them as peacekeepers and nobody would recognize this is indeed an international problem, and the situation worsened more and more and became as bad as possible. Today everybody recognized the start point. The territories of Georgia are occupied, Russians are occupants no matter how unpleasant is this truth, for the world commonwealth, this is the truth, that exists. Today, exactly for this reason, every European Institutions are involved in the resolution of this problem. I would like this support to be much more. I would like here not to be different hotbeds, that are, but fact is the fact, there is a support. There are many serious statements and our partners took responsibility. The issue of the European integration is seriously put for the first time, of real European integration, I speak about being closer to Europe and the territorial integrity of Georgia is very strictly mentioned, loudly, by all these international organizations and our friends and by the civilized countries of the world in general. China played a very good role, I speak about Europe and America, China, Central Asian countries worked, played an important role, many of unexpected countries, for us provided support and solidarity. I do not want us ever to forget and this should be written down in history of Georgia.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Lithuania, Baitikunas, came to Georgia, came to us and said, I ask you, when we knew that the airports were bombed, I ask you to announce that I’m going to be camped on the runway of the Tbilisi International Airport, put a tent there for me, and announce for the whole world to hear, that the Foreign Minister of the EU member country lives on the runway of the Tbilisi Airport, and if they bomb this runway, they will kill me.

200 000 Georgian flags were sold in Lithuania in 5 days. Like our singers, whom I appreciate very much, wrote many songs, there, a lovely kid, a girl of 14 or 15, wrote a very thrilling song about Georgia and some other bands did. Big quantities of blood were collected in Estonia and Poland. I, the Polish press blamed and part of representatives of different parties. President of Poland, but I saw him 4 days ago in Akhalgori, I’ll tell you more. I’ll tell you what was not heard yet. When he flied to Tbilisi, he demanded, because Russians told him, we’ll not let you in the air space, and he demanded his pilot to land at the Tbilisi Airport, despite rocket threat from Russia, and this was a very, very real threat. I know this in details, because Sandra was on board too, she came back from Beijing, circuitous route. So, really, and I looked at him several days ago in Akhalgori, he did not move an eye brow, when they shot. Now it was dark and it was very difficult to understand, who was shot. There were many provocative Russian soldiers. That is why we have to never forget it. We really have this support. May be some countries show less support, but today the Prime Minister of Denmark was here, he strictly blamed Russian aggression, spoke about strict support of Georgian territorial integrity, spoke about support of our integration in NATO. This is our, these are our partners and our friends. Now, this is it, this is a new reality for us. And existential fight is going on for Georgia today. Georgia exists on the World map in this shape for millennia. During these millennia many huge empires attacked us. Much stronger, than today’s Russia, for that time. And we survived in these borders and the names of some of them no one knows except historians. That is why, this our nearest and long term historical perspective. If we manage to keep Georgian statehood in these conditions, we’ll restore our territory. If the Georgian state is down … and they know it, if it is down, then it won’t be unite. That is why they will try to downfall, down and destroy us, that is why we must keep ourselves, in order to integrate. This is our strategic priority today. And everything else, moaning, groaning, pouring ashes, conversations, like what will happen to us, since it is complicated, on the one hand and on the other hand everything is much easier and our tactical and strategic goals are determined. What was another question?

Chairman.
Mr. President….

M. Saakashvili.
What about Akhalgori, I want to tell you, that Sarkozy agreement was not ideal, but of course such stupid stuff was not written there. When Sarkozy came here, he brought 6 point agreement. In the 6th point it was said, that territorial integrity of Georgia we, to be correct, the international status of these territories of Georgia will be determined on the next meeting. And well, this was completely unacceptable for me. I. e. we had to leave the issue of our territorial integrity open according to that cease fire agreement. …. Tanks came towards Tbilisi, I told him, OK, if they are tough let them come and destroy and kill us. But I, the President of Georgia, whose task is to keep the territorial integrity of Georgia, cannot sign anything, that may put under doubt the territorial integrity. President Sarkozy tried to contact President Medvedev and he was told, that Medvedev had no time and offered to cal next day. This was some common diplomatic maneuver. Well, we told him that we cannot sign it and let us part on this, because these are unimaginable conditions. Well, when Russians realized that Sarkozy does not leave and does not stop his efforts, and we do not surrender, in an hour, or hour and a half, they demonstrated respect and picked the phone for the call of the President of France and agreed to take that point out. I say it, because this was the only agreement that I personally signed, it is cease fire agreement and this agreement provides troops withdrawal from Kodori, Liakhvi gorges and Akhalgori as the first stage. Why, because this is the status-quo before August 7. This, of course, base installation there is a violation of the agreement, of course, so called recognition is a violation of the agreement more than rough. But I want to say that even this, till status-quo is the first stage. The next stage, of course, is their getting out of Georgia, since they are on the territory of Georgia, breaching all international norms. But I think, despite of this, interference of European Union was a very important step. I want to say, that next day after their interference, they violated the cease fire agreement and attacked and started large scale bombings of Georgia. On that second day they started large scale attack on Upper Abkhazia and developed offence in Gori and Tbilisi directions. So, what Chancellor of Germany Bismark said, times ago, that often, unfortunately, agreements concluded with Russia, cost exactly the cost of paper they were written on. Including, that it was not an agreement concluded with us, this was the agreement concluded between them and European Union, that they roughly trample down till today.

Chairman.
Mr. President, Mr. Levan and after him I have several questions.

L. Vepkhvadze.
Mr. Mikheil, I’ll continue with the issue of Akhalgori and ask you two questions, if you please. The first question is about today’s Russian occupational troops’ being in Akhalgori. Part of experts thinks that 2 years ago, when so called administration, Sanakoev’s administration elections were hold. By this, Georgian side had done it itself, gave a certain legitimate base to that Russians are in Akhalgori. I. e. actually, we, ourselves restored Ossetia in former borders. What comments would you make?

And the second question, that is also experts, let’s say is heard in media, this is title 69, the chapter is "The President of Georgia”, it is written there, title 69, paragraph 2, that the President of Georgia conducts and executes internal and foreign policy of the country. He provides unity and integrity of the country. Taking Akhalgori and Kodori into consideration, i. e. Upper Abkhazia part of experts asks a question why the issue of Presidential responsibility is not put. Since the Constitution was violated.

M. Saakashvili.
I want to tell you, that the issue of Presidential responsibility is, was and will be always. I take full responsibility for everything that happened in Georgia till this time and will happen during the time of my second term. This is one, and it is to be decided by Georgian people and Parliament how they will evaluate this responsibility.

What about seeking for legitimate base. There is no legitimate base for one country to occupy another. This is Russia’s, Russian propagandists, and I do not know, military legal personnel’s, because, probably no common lawyer would never write such stupid stuff. I think this is a complete delusion. what a document could we develop, that would give Russia possibility to occupy our territory. Now we can say, that this is doubling, some foreigners repeat this lies, Stalin gave South Ossetia and Abkhazia to Georgia, otherwise they never were in Georgia. Stalin has created South Ossetia and Abkhazia especially for this reason. Let us do not deceive ourselves that he did not trust Georgians. Stalin, together with Orjonikidze lead the 11th Army here, conquered Georgia and in 2 years Georgian Bolsheviks, Budu Mdivani and others, so called National-Communists declared that thank you for bringing us to the power, but we refrain from entering the Soviet Union and then they realized that Georgian Bolsheviks are not trustworthy. That is why they created these two formations as absolutely artificial Soviet adding. I do not say this that autonomy of national minority is unacceptable, on the contrary, I think, that their rights are to be maximally protected, their cultural, political, legal rights. This is my belief. I repeat it once more, I was an expert in this field. I wrote my first big work at the Norway Institute of Human Rights Protection about how to avoid already imbedded at that time conflicts in Tskhinvali and Abkhazia. I worked on this as a student, as a lawyer, and for me their rights, their broad, including the autonomous rights, this is a big component of my being and belief. But the Soviet interpretation of this was creation of local elite of top bureaucracy and actual violation of rights of every ethnic group, including titled Abkhazians and Ossetians, whose rights, of course, were also roughly violated. That is why, now, these were mines that, autonomies created in a wrong way, were put by them and unfortunately they exploded. Now, our plan of autonomy was much broader, much more comprehensive, much more specific and much more oriented on self-governing, considering interests of all ethnic groups, having much more autonomy, than could be imagined in the Soviet period, much more economical and political self-governing means. That is, what we were doing. So, let us no seek the base. I think, that Sanakoev’s project was, the project of establishment of the South Ossetia administration, correct and this was unique experience of accommodation between different ethnic groups, how people are inclined to peace by reviving processes. Russians had first to construct barricades against this project, then arrange provocations and after all start this war, because this project was winning, the time worked for us. When I said two years ago, chronometer is on, I meant that every day a new person came out, every day a new event happened, every day a new hope appeared for people, that we would consolidate unite and would live next to each other. I want to tell you that, of course, probably many mistakes were made, including those, made by different Georgian politicians, and among them, by different Georgian Governments, but mainly by our Government. But our main policy was directed to accommodation and consolidation and protection of their rights. For me the problem of autonomy of South Ossetia, never existed, they shoud take as much autonomy, as they could. Even today one cannot put South Ossetia to his shoulder and take it with him, whatever railways are built there, they can even built a space launching site there and whatever roads they built, because it is the organic part of Georgia, this is a society, that is organically bind to other part of Georgian society. I was often criticized and blamed for it. I am for broad autonomy and I do exactly understand what it means, and I realize risks, connected to this in case of incorrect development but also huge positive showings, connected to this for seek of consolidation.

Chairman.
Mr. President, I want to go back to Tskhinvali events. That well known statement that Tbilisi Mayor made, you gave him a task to make this statement, why did you give this task to the Mayor of the City, whose competence did not include .....

M. Saakashvili.
What statement, excuse me.

Chairman.
We are talking about that, making a peacekeeping corridor, cease fire and about making a peacekeeping corridor, Mr. Gigi Ugulava said that he received the task from you and the second question is do these words really belong to you, about moving the Capital or Georgia to Sukhumi in August.

M. Saakashvili.
I want to tell you, that, first of all, Mr. Gigi was here with other civil services, was mobilized there, significant part of Tbilisi motor car park was mobilized there. Many Ambulances and Fire vehicles, Fire service. The services worked well, and this is a success of Tbilisi Mayor. Tbilisi Mayor could make political statements, because he is a politician. He did not make military decisions and I think he does not claim for this and I now, you can make different interpretation of his performance, but his mandate was strictly defined.

Chairman.
You tasked him.

M. Saakashvili.
I tasked him to be there and to lead the civil infrastructure, his infrastructure that his is tasked with in the city, so nobody ask any more, what Ugulava wanted there, He wanted to perform his duties. This is one.

The second, about the issue of the Capital of Georgia. This, … speculation, about this. In August we would not be able to decide anything and you know it well and it was impossible to claim it. But this issue was discussed in the society in general and that, that if we signed, what we offered to Abkhazians, we offered them actually to divide power on the level of the Central Government, to the ethnic Abkhazians. I want to say, that the people of Abkhazia, these are ethnic Abkhazians and ethnic Georgians, ethnic Armenians, ethnic Ukrainians, ethnic Estonians, ethnic Jews, ethnic Greeks, all those people, who were forced out of there. 460 thousands are forced out of there. Recently one deputy from Greece, who literally was busy more with representing of the interests or other countries, rather than his own country’s, in Valencia on the Parliamentary Assembly when I was in Spain, told me several days ago, that, there, why do not you respect the rights of local Abkhazian population, who stayed there, that they do not want to live with you. I told him, ask those 30 thousand Greeks, who were evacuated by Geek port from Sukhumi that was bombed by Russians. Ask them, what they will tell you. You do not believe me? Ask your citizens. Ask several tens of thousands of other ethnic Georgians, who live there as result of this war and they will in the clearest way describe what exactly has happened there. So, but we offer Abkhazians and offered a very far-reaching suggestion, to rule Georgia together, to rule Georgia together. They had an opportunity, opportunity of dividing of power on the level of the Central Government, however and they would have a right of veto for every decision, that is about Abkhazia and they would also have full economic independence, free economic zones, international warranty of their autonomy, including from Russia, in case if they wanted it. And if after this all we agreed that the Federal center of Georgia is Sukhumi, but if agreed, I underline it, nobody would solely declare it. There was a discussion of this issue and I thought about it, I will not hide this, however I did not gossip with those people who now, this is the issue for the open discussion. This will be a subject of agreement. You know that we moved the Constitutional Court to Batumi, we move the whole number of structures to Kutaisi, delegation is made also, in conditions of the federal establishment of Georgia and based on the peaceful negotiations where the Federal Center of this Federal state would be.

Chairman.
You speak about constitutional limits, don’t you? I want to underline.

M. Saakashvili.
Within the limits of the new federal establishment we offered the ethnic Abkhazians. However I repeat once again, this is not an issue of our sole decision, it never was at this stage and in this direction this would be a big, long term issue of trust revival, negotiations and warranty of special protection. I do understand very well, what sensitivity the ethnic Abkhazians have towards their national identity and threat of assimilation. What happened to them today in terms of Russian occupation is the biggest threat that could happen to them. Because, now, does not matter, how they falsify history, Mukhajyr was arranged by the Russian occupational Army in the XIX century. Today they really face the new threat of Mukhajyr and new downfall and of course it is bad, it is a tragedy, one of the biggest tragedies that we have today, not the tragedy of Georgia in general, not the tragedy of those refugees and displaced and injured people, who lost their houses, but the tragedy of the people, who stayed there. The ethnic Ossetians are almost destroyed today, because actually this community that was well integrated in Georgia almost disappeared due to this occupation. The ethnic Abkhazians may face the threat of disappearing due to this occupation, because they do not need Abkhazians there, they need summer houses, military bases, military airfields and Abkhazians interfere with all these, by the way we know about it better than others, because we too have had relationships with our Russian partners and we know very well what is their mood and attitude. And even more, they do not need Abkhazians, they do not need them at all, they need Georgia. They need Georgia and everything this is just some exchange coins, these small nations, in the big fight, to dominate in Georgia, in Caucasus, in Central Asian and Caspian regions. This does not cause any doubt.

Chairman.
To Mrs. Khatuna.

K. Gogorishvili
. Mr. President one specific question, please. Why was Erosi Kitsmarishvili assigned as the Ambassador?

M. Saakashvili.
Here, I want to tell you that we all make mistakes, what can I do. I want to tell you, that by the recommendations of the Foreign Ministry this person was assigned. But at the same time I want to tell you, here is Mr. Gia Vashadze, former Deputy Minister of Foreign, we make one mistake per 100 successful assignments, sometimes one hard mistake. But this ministry, Foreign Ministry, I shall never forget it, worked day and night. …. They were told on my task, Minister’s duties at a certain moment, then Eka told them, that you can go home. Nobody left the building at all. Georgian public service is realized and this Ministry worked heroically indeed with its modest personnel and its modest capability. And now Georgia is in the stage of establishment of its statehood, we achieved much success, we as a state are realized. If the attack like this would happen 2 years ago, I think, we would get down, I return to this term again, and, I think much more would be like this …. this, I do not want to name them this word, because we all know what it is, but there is one thing, that everybody, and it concerns everybody, this, I think, concerns some of our colleagues, this concerns every person, this concerns our acting or fired officials, dismissed people, discharged people, among them. Yes, it may happen, that they do not like this Government, but we must no, with lies and untruth, go over the border, where ends the fight with the Government and starts the fight with interests of own country. It concerns everybody. Please.

----------Mr. President, you said, that ………. in Tbilisi I hope its for the reason, that as for heroic performance of our Army, same for support friend – countries from abroad. And was it affected also by the fact that they could not find support in the capital of Georgia itself and is it expectable that tomorrow or the day after tomorrow they will actively continue and make more active their activities in this regard.

M. Saakashvili.
I want to tell you, that first of all, once again I want to get back to this topic. This operation was prepared in Tskhinvali long time ago. Not ours, theirs. Because, that, imagine, in Tskhinvali in 90-ies was such illegal ruler, but ruler by people, elected by the people who stayed there Mr. Ludvig Chibirov, professor Chibirov is now a professor in Vladikavkaz. I think that he was a very good man and he is a very good man. He was a person, he wrote a big book and I have read this book in details and the main idea of this book is that the place of Ossetians, place of South Ossetians was, is and always will be only in Georgia. He asked, he begged Shevardnadze, just sign something for us, sign an agreement, but this is the period, when Shevardnadze told Aslan Abashidze, if you remember, declare independence and, now, in the circumstances, when the Ministry of Internal Affairs was itself involved in Ergneti market and contraband there, nobody in Georgia had any desire for negotiations. Before elections Chibirov saw that threat comes from Moscow, because Moscow did not consider him …. the center for him was Tbilisi and he once again asked Shevardnadze, and there are many witnesses of it, that I ask you let us agree on just anything, for me to tell people before elections. "FSB” brought Kokoity, a former racketeer from Moscow, being completely under the control of Moscow and assigned him as the President of South Ossetia. After this they issued the order on passports’ issuance and this was followed by all those events, that, all the active involvement of Russia into these events. So this was a long planned thing, at the time, when no one of us hold these positions and were not actively involved into these issues. This was a well calculated scheme of that, to execute crawling annexation of Georgian territories and again I want, that in broad understanding, this war started at that time. August 7 was a desire of final completion of this war and final dealing with us. And, of course, since it was an attempt of final dealing with us, with us as with a state, I do not mean the Government, this threat, of course, still exists. I think, threat of military confrontation and it is comparatively decreased, because there are very unprejudiced European observers on the ground, but, unfortunately, our neighbor still has its strategic goals.

Will they try to find a support here, they try it always. I want to recollect whole number of provocations. I want to recollect year of 2006, well, let us start, let us go through the list. Provocations in 2004 in Tskhinvali, after this bringing in great number of weapons, after this, ministers assigned from Moscow, after this coming of Morozov, the Prime Minister of the Government of Tskhinvali, after this, in January 2006, I tell you about exploding the pipeline in Turkey, but this was not the first pipeline exploded. The first, pipeline, to be correct. The first and two electric transmission lines were exploded by the end of January 2006 and, practically Georgia was drowned into complete darkness and shadow of that winter and during many winters in the coldest days. That was an economical embargo, placed in Spring of 2006. This was an open attempt to depose the Government by Russian agents during the year of 2006. I want to remind you that I said about it in public for the first time, we arrested Russian Colonel Boyko, Russian Colonel with proved accusation of exploding of Police in Gori, we had every evidence that he exploded, he leaded and local terrorist group did explode. Russians did not say anything about it on TV, then they came to us and said, maybe, we can calmly negotiate, we do not need complications now, let that person out. I made, all of us made, may be not completely lawful decision, and passed this person to them under risk for ourselves. And after this, their activities did not stop on this, it became even stronger. After this we had to do it openly, openly arrest Officer of "GRU”, also with proved accusation of espionage and preparation of diversion and openly pass him to them in front of TV cameras. That is why this was such a long list of these provocations, that and we do not speak about attempts of attack on leaders of opposition, attempt of killing of Koba Davitashvili, proved attempt of killing of the Deputy Head of the Intelligence Service of Georgia. We have videos that we passed to G-7, where this case was specially discussed on the Internal Affairs Ministerial meeting, how they tried to kill the Head of our Intelligence Service and how, in Vladikavlaz, the Head of local "FSB” in front of TV cameras passed money and tasked to kill high ranking official of Intelligence Service, the official Law Enforcement body of the other, your neighboring country. That is why, of course, these attempts will be continued, I do not exclude, that as you saw, even based on different other examples, that there were our citizens, who are ready to cooperate with this, but our response to it is more democracy, more freedom, more discussion, more economic reforms, more openness of the society and the main recipe is not a work of Police and Counterintelligence, the main recipe is to have healthy debate In the society, everything to be named its own name and the truth will be born in this discussion and this will not be in the interests of our adversary.

Chairman.
Mr. President, here, all this, here, out of this information, that we received, especially, out of your last statement, are you going to conduct negotiations with Russia and are you ready for the restoration of the diplomatic relations and to start a phase of negotiation?

M. Saakashvili.
I want to tell you, I want to give a brief history of our relationship with Russia. On 2004, my first official visit as the President was to Russian Federation, to Germany and Russian Federation, to be correct, first to Germany.

But, well, I on purpose went there before America, because there were speculations, that we are American project, how you can often hear now, including some naïve foreign publications. I met President Putin. Well, it was a general conversation excluding the two details.

He said, that, the first – please, do not push removal of military bases right now and the second – that your Security Minister, acting, this is our friend, and I ask you to take care of him and have good relationship with him. Well, now, this conversation was about Valery Khaburdzania. I have no personal claims to Valery Khaburdzania, but it is a fact, that Putin, the leader of the state that bombed us, turned off road (typing error, gas instead of road – translator’s note) suddenly declares that our Security Minister is their friend, we should not touch him for this reason.

Well, after this personnel shifting happened here. The Security Minister, we closed the Ministry itself, joined it to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. I thought that was right. We are the only post Soviet country except Baltic countries that did it, and after this on my second or third visit, when Putin asked, - well, how is our friend, I told him, - your friend is promoted, he is now the first Deputy General Prosecutor, - what kind of promotion is this? You have fired him. I told him, - now, - excuse me, but you did a very bad thing. But I want to tell you, I do not arise indeed and I do not declare Valery Khaburdzania to be a Russian agent, but I would never accept indeed that even friendly Russia’s President, and indeed at that circumstances relationship was not really friendly ministers in our country, especially the Security Minister who has to take care, that interests of other country in our country do not increase. This is one.

Then another. I have told you about bases. After this about the events in Ajara we had coordination with them, we worked but Russia’s Foreign Ministry did everything, not to depose Aslan in Ajara. Great number of Russian officers came on mission and run N-72 (typing error – T-72 instead of N-72 – translator’s note) by the border, as if they simulated military activities and if not very wise position of Turkey, that strictly accused any separatism in Ajara, Russia could manage its business. Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia, take it out, made statement one more aggressive than another about Ajara and despite this, the local Ajarian population, has shown complete heroism and bravery and we managed to avoid that bloodshed and to free Ajara.

After this on the second or the third day, I think on the second day, despite that, I repeat it once again, that with the leadership of Nedkachyov, sent by Russia, Dumbadze exploded bridges and this was Russian special operation. You know that who took Dumbadze, now, do you know by chance? The master came and took him. And I want to say, that why did we change Dumbadze, because we changed him to several hundreds of innocent local inhabitants, all of ethnic ancestry, who were taken as hostages. Indeed for me to drop even one hair from the head of even one our person, whether Ossetian or Georgian, is not worthy of sitting in a jail of one betrayer of the Motherland, I do not use it as a political term, this was a decision of the Court and that is why I can use it, anyway for keeping a diplomatic courtesy, I called Putin and told him, that, thank you very much, Vladimir Vladimirovich, for understanding.

Now, that, indeed I would not deceive myself, that you helped us, but you met events in Ajara with understanding and I thought he also would keep a diplomatic courtesy and he would answer that well and let us be friends, - but unexpectedly for me, he interrupted me very roughly and told me, that now, this time, we have helped you in Ajara, this was not truth indeed, but, - let you know, in future, in South Ossetia and Abkhazia you will not have any gifts from us. Well, I was confused a little bit and told him, that, - I do not know, let us speak a little bit, send somebody, may be we’ll agree on something.

Igor Ivanov came, without bringing anything concrete, we whirled around him this way and that way. Not only we whirled around him, for example, Foreign Minister Lavrov was assigned after and at a certain moment journalists asked him, - here, what do you want from Georgia? At first, when they asked Ivanov, he did not answer. Lavrov answered, Georgia knows it well itself, what do we want from it. But I want to confirm with whole responsibility, that never we could get any concrete answer for any of the issues.

And after this a serious complication happened. Because we closed contraband from Tskhinvali, Russians brought in several hundreds of armored equipment, 25 "MI-24”s, several thousands of troops. More than enough to remove the Armed Forces of Georgia of that times out of Tskhinvali in several hours.

So, this was our expansion of this relationship, but I want to say that we offered them many things: first of all we entered number of peaceful, for example, in regard of Tskhinvali, tell Russia, that, - if it is your interest, for Ossetians to have autonomy, for you toe be declared a winner, here, you say that Georgians cancelled Ossetian autonomy, - let you make us, - we tell them with these words, - make us to give autonomy back to Ossetians, be a warrant of their autonomy, you will be winners, we shall be winners, Ossetians will flourish and everybody will be happy.

---------- Mr. Mikheil, excuse me for interrupting you, Mr. Erosi Kitsmarishvili was here with us several days ago.

M. Saakashvili.
You already refer to this person as if he were a classic…

---------- Yes, no, because he made statements and, correspondingly, it is our duty to subsequently check these statements with you as a personal source. First that he said after your first meeting with Putin, Putin said to you on this meeting, that he is not ready to discuss issue of Abkhazia, but he is ready to start discussion on the issue of South Ossetia.

M. Saakashvili.
I do not know how this person could learn it. Probably he read about it in "Alia” or in "Asaval-Dasavali”, it is long time since I read "Asaval-Dasavali”.

---------- And I’ll add another thing that he said. You have mentioned August. He said, that in August the Government of Georgia was reviewing, he mentioned specific date, and specific people, who attended this meeting, was reviewing possibility of force, i. e. conducting of military operation in South Ossetia.

M. Saakashvili.
What August?

---------- August 2004.

M. Saakashvili.
On August 2004, we conducted anti contraband operation. I made a decision at that time, when the situation was complicated, to move all military formations out of there. I made this decision. Well, what about, now, first speculations.

Now we can many, open newspapers, many things are written there, I tell you about what was if you are interested, I’ll go on telling in this direction. After this the provocations happened, that I told you about, gas turn off, electricity turn off, military embargo and On November 2006 after the first has happened, that pass of spies to Russia.

Putin went there, Russian television started to speak, that the war will occur between Georgia and Russia. There was a very big military rhetoric, it was, now we blacksmith Georgia, started deportation of Georgians from Russia and, in thes circumstances President Putin went to the EU summit, to Finnish city Lahty and read a real reprimand to the EU leaders about, that Georgia is going to destroy small nations – Ossetians and Abkhazians and blamed us on attempt of genocide. Same rhetoric that was used this year.

But there, I’ll tell you how the sitting was conducted. Many of our friends attended it, it was agreed beforehand. Putin’s speech was very aggressive and then President of France Shirak, who was his friend and ally, said, - that OK, OK, let us leave this issue and move to other issues. And for a minute Chancellor of Austria took the word, Schiesel sad, - let us speak about this issue, we are interested, in this issue till the end. And after this every leader, without any exclusion took the word, including our today's guest the Prime Minister of Denmark and everybody strictly criticized … Putin.

And th EU, practically completely …. has shown towards his aggressive policy. After this Condoleezza Rice went to Moscow, she had a very strict conversation with Putin on the level, as far as I know, that at a certain moment these negotiations almost failed. But anyway, the message, as they say now, was received and in a week the issue Georgia and about the war disappeared from Russian TV screens.

But after this I was in Minsk on the CIS summit and there I had a very unpleasant conversation with him, with Putin. At first he scolded me for the spies, then said, that I know, that economical embargo does not work, unfortunately, he knew about it, may be, if he considered that we are destroyed and will perish, he wouldn’t do anything more, but, - we shall see, - I’ll make you North Cyprus, - what does it mean North Cyprus? North Cyprus scenario, by hi understanding is a military intervention, to another other country and holding its territory under military occupation and after this its recognition – absolutely definite military political scenario. Kosovo was not on the horizon at that time, He took this scenario, but other … it was named then a Cyprus scenario.

By the way the same he told to some western Leaders. On my every attempt, that was, - OK, let’s speak; what exactly do you want from us? – We want, - was the answer, fundamentally, - you to change your behavior and, - let’s we say, may be we can speak, - no, first you change your behavior and then we shall speak on specifics, change everything what you are doing.

I have to tell you, once again, that it was an attempt, that the model of Georgia as a successful state with economical reforms, democracy, free speech expression, integration with West, with Europe, this everything was basically, ideologically unacceptable for that authoritarian model that this specific leadership tried to implement in the whole post Soviet space.

Fundamentally unacceptable was also, that it was considered in 2004 we were not considered as a big enough threat, in November-December 2004 the Revolution happened in Ukraine and the leader of the Ukrainian Revolution used to say, that they adopted example of Georgia, and then we were already considered to be a killing threat. At that time the situation became very complicated for us. That is why and after this planning started. I remember, after the Ukrainian Revolution Russian energetic corporations representatives were called to Kremlin and asked, - how is it possible to turn off gas and electricity to Georgia, and they said, that it is technically impossible and after, you know, they thought a lot and after some time executed direct explosions in North Caucasus direction.

So, we, unfortunately had a fundamental agreement of this type on the main issue. My conclusion, after all, was this, this type, provided this political system, this freedom of choice, existence of Georgia today’s leadership in Moscow is, unfortunately fundamentally unacceptable. There is no personal incompatibility. Even today I want to tell you, that I have no irritation, personal neither towards Putin, nor to the President Medvedev. This is a fundamental incompatibility. This, that they think, that our existence is their serious problem and their serious defeat, and how can this be corrected, I, to tell you the truth, to not know completely. I think, the long term correction of it is in integration of Georgia in Europe, in further hopefully civilized development of Russia, democratization of Russia, civilized relationship of Russia with other European and other civilized world in general and as Russia has less today with Finland, as, let’s say it had in times of Stalin in 1939 and we do not want to wait for such a long time, hopefully, it will have less problems with us in the nearest future. As Russia does not doubt today existence of independent Czechia, independent Slovakia, independent Hungary, hopefully, it will not doubt existence of independent Georgia.

Russians always had three fundamental issues to us. The first, that they would make North Cyprus in Georgia and, in general, we are going to have problems. The second, that Ukraine is not a real country, it is a territory. The third, NATO cannot protect Baltic countries. They have already executed the first one. I fear that the second and the third are still on their program. We have tried everything. First of all, we made a serious offer on autonomy, for Russia to be a serious warrant of South Ossetian autonomy. We made an offer of very broad autonomy to Abkhazia. Again we offered Russia to be a broad warrant of their autonomies.

In the month of June, I sent a letter to the President Medvedev, I repeat it once more, and thought, well, what can I offer, that if they do not want war, to make satisfied. I know, that they like resorts, Bitchvinta, Gagra, well, Sukhumi. I know, they had bought property there, as a cheap gain and I told them, that, - OK, we are ready, your economic interests here, we are ready, to legalize in terms of our agreement, being of your peacekeepers more to the North, for example on the river Kodori, of course, in terms where the territorial integrity of Georgia is recognized and protected and we do not negotiate on territories, we do not negotiate with territories, but really your economic interests will be legalized, political occurrence. Let us speak about opening the transport communications, which would be good for the Sochi Olympics, and we supported the Sochi Olympics till the last time and in return, let us get refuges in for 80 kilometers till the river Kodori, on the distance of 80 kilometers, let us make mixed administration, let us make a free economic zone. Let us give people possibility to develop and give the example of how is it possible to resolve conflict by development and economic success. To reinstate the train Moscow-Tbilisi-Yerevan, open communications, give people possibility to contact with each other and I think this was a very good plan of conflict resolution. More long term plan, but the one compatible with Russia’s peaceful, theoretically peaceful interests.

We got a very rough answer to this. After this Stainmeyer was involved in the process, before that the EU accepted our plan, OSCE accepted our peacekeeping plan in public. Stainmeyer brought not an ideal plan, that was weaker than our plan, but we agreed to it. By the end of July, Russians seemed to agree, then Abkhazians said, let us postpone the Conference till the end of August. So, they took this month, from the middle of July till the end of August. Here’s a question, why? Condoleezza Rice came and also, had relationship with Russia. Russians said, - let us discuss this issue in September. This is to be questioned why did want to take time-out for the month of August. So, and I know, this plan, which, that leaked. I want to say, that I did not advertise this letter since we were in the process of negotiation and we did not want, to speak with each other by newspapers. This leaked to Russian press and reaction of Georgia was very painful. I was maximally informed, but I thought that I had to take this responsibility, bravery, offer maximally brave and flexible plan to Russians. Because I knew that the main value on this step was for us freedom and gain time.

Chairman.
I’ll underline, Mr. President, ....

M. Saakashvili.
And I want to, .......

Chairman.
Was not there a plan of dividing, of dividing?

M. Saakashvili.
No, this was not a plan of dividing indeed, I repeat once again, but this was a plan of step by step resolution. Not at once, but step by step resolution plan, considering Russian economical, political and military interests of Russia. Including, of course, at the cost of postponing of a complete resolution of the conflict. But at the cost of that, as a minimum, half of refugees we would move back, because of that, as a result of this and really would start an integration and consolidation process. But this would be a process stretched in time. That is why, when we offered this, I think it is clear for everybody, that we did not speak about no Blitzkrieg, especially Blitzkrieg with whom, with Russia a Blitzkrieg? We have seen how Russia interfered in Abkhazian elections, when it had no headache of it at all, on January 2005. It has recently lost elections in Ukraine. How they interfered in the elections! I remember well Putin’s threatening in spring of 2004: we’ll not allow, by all methods we’ll not allow a military decision of the Abkhazian issue. I knew it well, that Russia would fight for Abkhazia with all its force. And this was our main problem, for the attack not to occur on Kodori and we developed all sorts of plans, thousands of plans of reinforcement of Kodori. But, unfortunately Russia completely refused this plan and it was absolutely clear for me already, that the situation, considering that military railroad is completed, to be correct, railroad for military equipment transportation is completed and this "MIG”s marked everything there, around Tkvarcheli and on Kodori direction, on Gali direction provocations happen more often, it was as clear as day for me that something much worse would happen, than we could imagine. Could we or not to intercourse with Russia different way. We and intercourse with Russia, probably, may be, some mistakes, may be, were made, of course, but we cannot enter any agreement at the cost of the fundamental value – territorial integrity and sovereignty of Georgia, people. History did not give us right to do it. You say…do we want negotiation with Russia. We are in negotiation mode with Russia in Geneva. We have kept consular relationship with Russia, since it is in the vital humanitarian interests of citizens of both countries, but do not request me, to me, as the President of Georgia to agree that Russia would have one Embassy in Sukhumi, another one in Tskhinvali, here, as near as your years are, and the third one in Tbilisi. This will be a mockery of every international principle of law and this will be an absolute trampling down of Georgian dignity, sovereignty and basic legal principles. We will by all means have relationship with Russia. I want to say, that no Russian in Georgia dropped a hair from the head, I know this attitude, what it is. Recently my wife took Dukhobors from Tsalka and Ninotsminda for two days sightseeing tour, I know, that these people are very …. despite the fact they were invited to go to Russia, no one went, this is their motherland, they are Georgian Russians. And even more. Recently I have met several Russian former militaries in Batumi, they were walking like this, they felt themselves well, they served there and then they stayed there and Georgian patriotism seems to be in these people. Not even this, Borisov too seemed to swear to have Georgian patriotism, but of his own understanding. I had intense conversations with Kakha on this issue. But the whole substance is that these people, these people must, these people must understand, I speak about the leadership, about the Government, that it’s possible to have relationship with Georgia, as united, federal, in terms of protection of every right, different ethnical groups’ representatives, autonomies and integral state formation, integral subject and in this case, we, I’m sure in future will have very good relationship. I always told Russian leaders during these meetings, I can recite for hours, recite poems of Mandelshtam, Yesenin, Vysotsky, our brother Okujava and many other prominent poets. I do not think, that every "FSB” Colonel, General, who work on different positions, can have contest with me in this, they may be better in other things. I love Russian people very much, I respect them, but most of all I love my country and I love justice nd I told them, you, ma be not the next, but the next after next President of Georgia may not know even a single word in Russian. You have more influence on us today than you can gain by military provocations or dividing of our territories. You can really be Georgia’s … because Georgian people love your culture, you love our culture, we love to meet each other in different situations, we love, and after all, there are more Georgian restaurants in Moscow, than anywhere else. We are one and the same, in many regards, there are many things that unify us. But in the circumstances when we respected each other, we respect them there are no our soldiers on their territory, it is their soldiers who shoot us in Akhalgori. Their soldiers are on the Inguri Bridge. City of Akhalgori in the XXI century is renamed to Leningori. They build a new Berlin Wall in Abkhazia. We are in the European country of the XXI century. So, I think, this has no perspective. I think, we are at the nightmare stage and keeping of this, doing of it without punishment is impossible by any of historical principles and they keep it, the situation will worsen much more there and then all others will have problems around them and will worsen even more, before it starts to become better. That it will become better there too, I have no doubt at all. I think, that we have to continue our Euro Atlantic integration, our relationship with our traditional partners and we, of course, the better shape we are in, the easier will be to solve even the most unsolvable problems with Russia. This is my deep belief, we will not … the Lord sees we have not created these problems and we are those who want to solve them most of all, but solving of our problems, shaking hands, I, you know I have stretched my hand on the first elections. On the second elections I said, let us start everything from the blank page. We shook hands, but we’ll shake hands on the Psou and in Roki tunnel, or, if not there, then in Lars, somewhere there, at a lit place and after this we’ll visit each other without tanks.

Chairman.
Mr. Givi, please.

G. Targamadze.
You have mentioned a Euro Atlantic integration and I want to give you a question on this issue. Do you think that the war significantly interfered NATO integration perspectives for Georgia, in general, against the background of statement of the new American administration, what are your expectations for the December summit and do you think that besides political issues, unconvincing pace of democratic reforms in Georgia is interfering factor for NATO integration. Thank you.

M. Saakashvili.
I want to tell you that when I spoke about strategic goals of Russian intervention, I may be missed, but I mean, it is about to prevent Georgia from NATO membership, Georgia and Ukraine, because we go in the package. The main aim of this war, one of them, was that NATO would declare that Bucharest decisions are cancelled and Georgia cannot in these new circumstances become a NATO member. NATO firmly declares, and the most skeptic country among them – Germany, that despite the August aggression, Georgia anyway will become a NATO member. This is the first serous victory. The second one, about that much talked-about MAP. Now this MAP at the due time was invented for several countries, for Baltic countries, because it was a step for membership there. Before that there was an intense dialogue, invented especially for Czechoslovakia, for Czechoslovakia I times of Vatslav Havel. That Vatslav Havel, by the way, who said the attack on Georgia reminds him Sudetland, German occupation of Sudetland … that shame as a result of agreement between Czechoslovakia and Munich, that Europe of that time experienced. So we want to join NATO, but we do not want MAP, we want to join NATO. If they will think about any new technique, how to make Georgia join NATO, this will be very good. Lastly this was the joint initiative of America and Britain. Will this be a difficult way? This will be a difficult way. Will there be provocations? There will be provocations, but do we have any other way. Do we have any other warranty of our protection. We, on the one hand, but we enter there not because NATO will return us Abkhazia or Tskhinvali. We want to join NATO, because we want Georgia to develop and keep statehood and be consolidated, for us to be a part of this big system, for them to help us, but also for us to help them, for us to be a part of this big decision making system on global issues. When you are effective, when you are useful, then you are helped more and not on the contrary, nobody needs completely useless, ineffective countries. That is why I, when I get foreign assistance, now it is announced we received four and a half, five billions, and I hope, the Parliament will control this, it must not be considered as to be kept somewhere in Bakradze’s room or in mine. Years will be needed for it to flow and I hope you will control this, but I do not want Georgia to be hanged on the foreign assistance. We have to have a real economics; people must have a real income, real work places should be created. We cannot become like another occupied Palestinian administration, another formation that constantly lives on foreign assistance, Georgian self-respect, dignity and mere pragmatic calculation is based on being self-reliant and same about our security. We must be able to protect ourselves, to resist adequately and be adequate partners in every issue and that is why I think, that we have a perspective regarding NATO. I think, many thing will be decided by spring, however, I hope a serious support will be expressed towards us, support was not decreased, but even widened. I have told you once more, there are well known countries. There are elections next year in Germany and this is a very big interelectional topic between different parties. And another thing. This issue is in on of the countries, but today, you look probably at the Prime Minister of Denmark, which is not, let’s say a Baltic country and let’s say, does not automatically express interests of our traditional allies, that is it, in the most firm way supported ambition of Georgia for NATO membership. And same about many western traditional European, old European countries. England is very active, administration of America expresses great support, by the way there were some speculations in previous days that America would retreat, nothing like this happened, on the contrary, they are even more active, than in April and today they all their activities are agreed with the new administration, I want to say and as far as I know. So, and I do not know whether these details were discussed, I can not swear, but in general, their foreign policy will not change. So, in general I am very optimistic. This is not about the question will it be or not, but when. What question did you have besides this one?

Chairman.
Mr. Levan had a question and Mr. Dimitri after him.

L. Vepkhvadze.
Mr. Mikheil, I want to get back to your statement that you made in those days. How do you think … part of people think that the statement included a serious threat and more radicalism, who say that this statement included state secret …

M Saakashvili.
What statement.

L. Vepkhvadze.
I’ll tell you now. On the 12th or 13th in the evening you made a statement that a big part of the Georgian Army, the majority of it has survived, including military equipment and they are in the forest.

M Saakashvili.
I said they were in the forest? I cannot recollect it now.

------------------- There was a statement that the biggest part of the Georgian Army has survived and they are efficient and we have resources, including those in the forest to resist if it is necessary. Your question, I think repeats one of the questions of Mrs. Burjanadze.

L. Vepkhvadze.
Yes it is one of the questions.

M Saakashvili.
I want to