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Тема Re: Християните пият ли БИРА ???нови [re: Heпoзнaт®]  
Автор dqdogodo (упорит охльов)
Публикувано24.06.07 19:49



Братята Уесли сигурно са били големи глупаци да проповядват пълно въздържание от всякакъв алкохол... и точно това ги е отличавало най-много от пияндетата в държавната църква по онова време.


ти какабво предлагаш?
да вземем да вярваме в братя Уесли,а не в Христос?

Умът е не само в знанието, но и умението то да се прилага.


Тема Re: Християните пият ли БИРА ???нови [re: Heпoзнaт®]  
Автор cuddlyМодератор ()
Публикувано24.06.07 23:31



от бирата до джойнтчето, според мен има разлика.




Тема Re: Християните пият ли БИРА ???нови [re: Heпoзнaт®]  
Автор lvoBG (избран)
Публикувано25.06.07 02:07



"Естествено, че въобще не става въпрос за алкохолно вино."

Да, разбира се. Въобще не става въпрос за алкохолно вино и на сватбата в Кана, което Исус е направил. Онези толкова се били напили вече с алкохолното вино, че новото неалкохолно вино им сте сторило по-хубаво от алкохолното.



Тема Re: Християните пият ли БИРА ???нови [re: lvoBG]  
Автор Last Roman (PRAEFECTUS URBI)
Публикувано25.06.07 06:34



С други думи римляните погнали Исус, защото правил вино менте и така подбивал италийското винопроизводство.



Facta, non verba!


Тема Re: Християните пият ли БИРА ???нови [re: Heпoзнaт®]  
Автор kakata (от Тобосо)
Публикувано25.06.07 07:33



Не е така. Библейското вино си е чист продукт на ферментация.
Виното в разумни количества е източник на ценни вещества и не бива да се забранява.



Тема Re: Християните пият ли БИРА ???нови [re: kakata]  
Автор zlati777 (новак)
Публикувано25.06.07 09:17



Всяко нещо,което след употребата му те подтиква към буйства,скандали и вреда на ближния е грях.Независимо какъв вид алкохол е.Но ако се веселиш с ближния на биричка с цацичка и картофки и ви е добре-кое му лошото?После се разделяте по живо по здраво и това е.





Тема Re: Християните пият ли БИРА ???нови [re: lvoBG]  
Автор Heпoзнaт® (Архонтствуващ)
Публикувано25.06.07 18:31



Разбира се, че не става въпрос за алкохолно вино на сватбата в Кана Галилейска. Вече почти не се среща сериозен теолог, който да твърди, че Исус и апостолите са били наркомани, т.е. използвали са социално приемливи наркотици:

Now, "Did Jesus make alcohol for the wedding in Cana?" The term used in, John 2:1-11, is "oinos" the generic Greek word for both fermented or unfermented juice. We must determine from the context whether it is a fermented or unfermented drink here.

The person in charge of the wedding party remarked, after he had tasted the wine, "…you have kept the good wine until now." Good wine was fresh grape juice, the fermented grape juice was considered inferior. Also Jesus would know about Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (being God as well as man), and would not give alcohol to a wedding party, which probably included several pregnant women. No, Jesus did NOT make a fermented wine at this wedding. What He did do was to give a wedding gift of at least 120 gallons of fresh grape juice.

The Hebrew word (chemah) is translated as "poison" when speaking of fermented wine in Deuteronomy 32:33. Alcohol is a toxic mind-altering drug. Alcohol causes ill effects on the digestive, muscular, skeletal, nervous and circulatory systems. It causes cirrhosis of the liver, jaundice, pancreatitis, and blackouts as well as many other sicknesses.

About sixty percent of all traffic accidents and seventy percent of all murders are alcohol related. Then there is the untold domestic violence it has caused. Proverbs 20:1, warns, "Wine is a mocker, intoxicating drink (beer) arouses fighting, whoever is led astray by it is not wise!

God’s Word is consistent, it does not tell us not to drink fermented wine in one part of the Bible and in another only drink a little. Here are three types of New Testament references that people think are saying it is all right to drink a little fermented wine or beer, etc. First, Ephesians 5:18, in some versions the word "excess" is used. The New King James Version more accurately uses the word "dissipation" (meaning intemperance or the opposite of temperance-which is total abstinence from alcoholic liquors).

Second, in other references such as 1 Timothy 3:2,3 and Titus 1:7, we have the phrase, "not given to wine"1 this is taken by some to mean, "not to be addicted" to alcohol. But in reality the Greek word used here is, "mee-paroinon", literally, not at, by near, or with wine (alcohol). According to Paul, total abstinence is an indispensable qualification for a pastor.

The third type of reference that has caused confusion to some, are the ones like 1 Timothy 3:8 and Titus 2:3…"not given to much wine"2. In order to understand this verse we will need to understand a popular vice of that time. That was to drink a lot of unfermented wine. They used various methods to promote thirst. These drinkers might continue drinking all night at their feasts. Excessive drinking, even of non-alcoholic drinks corresponded to gluttony-the excessive use of food. Paul is simply guarding the deacons against a vice of the day. It would be similar in our day to "bulimia" (eating or drinking to the point of being gorged and then vomiting). This is unbecoming behavior for a Christian in any age! (1 The New International Version says here, "not given to drunkenness" 2 "not given to much wine" these translations do not make sense in light of Proverbs 23:31 and 32 and the rest of the injunctions against any drinking of alcohol).

In Revelation 1:6, we are called kings and priests, according to Scripture kings or princes were not to drink fermented wine or intoxicating drink. In Proverbs 31:4,5 we are also told that priests were not to drink any wine or intoxicating drink when they went into the tabernacle (or temple), Leviticus 10:9 and 10. Then 1 Corinthians 3:16 says, "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

For more study on this subject read also: 1 Samuel 1:13-16, Proverbs 4:14-17, 23:29-35, Isaiah 5:22, 28:7,8 Jeremiah 35:1-6,18,19; Daniel 1:8-16, Amos 2:12 Habakkuk 2:5,15-16; 1 Peter 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:6-8.




Тема Не, християните не би трябвало да са пияндетанови [re: lvoBG]  
Автор Heпoзнaт® (Архонтствуващ)
Публикувано25.06.07 18:35



Ако човек трябва да бъде съвсем искрен, никъде в Библията няма доказателство в подкрепа на християните пияндета, нито се препоръчва умерена, а още по-малко неумерена употреба на социално приемливи наркотици.

Moral or Medical Issue? By maintaining that the Bible sanctions the moderate use of alcoholic beverages, moderationists have led people to believe that drinking alcohol is not a moral but a medical issue. It is not a transgression of a God-given principle, but a habit which can harm one’s health, if abused. The elimination of any sinful connotation from the use of alcohol has had an enormous influence on the drinking habits of millions of Christians. It has provided Christians with an alleged Biblical and moral justification for drinking alcohol, thus depriving them of a Biblical and moral conviction for abstaining from intoxicating beverages.

In view of the immense influence the moderationist view has had on the drinking habits of millions of Christians, the major objective of this study has been to examine its fundamental assumption, namely, that the Bible sanctions a moderate use of alcoholic beverages. Since this assumption is dictated by the belief that the terms for "wine" in the Bible always mean "fermented wine," I began this investigation by ascertaining the Biblical and historical usage of such terms.

The Meaning of "Wine." The objective of the survey conducted in Chapter 2 was to ascertain if the terms used for "wine" in the Bible denote exclusively fermented wine or inclusively either fermented or unfermented wine. I traced the usage of the word "wine" backward, from English, to Latin, Greek and finally to Hebrew. The survey shows that the four related words—wine in English, vinum in Latin, oinos in Greek and yayin in Hebrew—have been used historically to refer to the juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented. This significant finding discredits the claim that the Bible knows only fermented wine, which it approves when used moderately. The truth of the matter is that the Bible knows both fermented wine, which it disapproves, and unfermented grape juice, which it approves.

"Wine" in Biblical Perspective. Building on the conclusions reached in Chapter 2, I proceeded in Chapter 3 to examine the reasons for the Biblical approval and disapproval of wine. What I found is that the positive references to "wine" have to do with unfermented and unintoxicating grape juice. Because of its natural and nourishing properties, grape juice was fittingly used to represent the divine blessing of material prosperity (Gen 27:28; 49:10-11; Deut 33:28), the blessing of the messianic age (Joel 2:18-19; Jer 31:10-12; Amos 9:13, 14), the free offer of God’s saving grace (Is 55:1), the wholesome joy God offers to His people (Ps 104:14-15; 4:7), and the acknowledgment of God through the use of grape juice as tithe, offerings and libations (Num 18:12; Deut 14:23; Ex 29:40; Lev 23:13).

On the other hand, the negative references to "wine" have to do with fermented and intoxicating wine. Some of the reasons Scripture condemns the use of alcoholic beverages are that they distort the perception of reality (Is 28:7; Prov 23:33); they impair the capacity to make responsible decisions (Lev 10:9-11); they weaken moral sensitivities and inhibitions (Gen 9:21; 19:32; Hab 2:15; Is 5:11-12); they cause physical sickness (Prov 23:20-21; Hos 7:5; Is 19:14; Ps 60:3); and they disqualify for both civil and religious service (Prov 31:4-5; Lev 10:9-11; Ezek 44:23; 1 Tim 3:2-3; Titus 1:7-8).

The Preservation of Wine. A major objection against the view that Scripture approves the use of unfermented grape juice is the alleged impossibility in Bible times of preserving grape juice unfermented. Thus, I devoted Chapter 4 to probing this popular assumption by investigating the testimonies of ancient writers regarding the art of preserving fruits and wines in general and grape juice in particular. To my surprise I discovered that the ancients were far more knowledgeable in the art of preserving fruits and wines than is generally believed.

Contrary to popular opinion, the problems the ancients encountered in preserving fermented wine were as great as, if not actually greater than, those faced in preserving unfermented grape juice. To prevent fermented wine from becoming acid, moldy, or foul-smelling, vintners used a host of preservatives such as salt, sea-water, liquid or solid pitch, boiled-down must, marble dust, lime, sulphur fumes and crushed iris.

In comparison to preserving fermented wine, preserving grape juice unfermented was a relatively simpler process. It was accomplished by boiling down the juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration, or by placing the grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water, or by fumigating the wine jars with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly indicates that the means of preserving grape juice without fermentation were known and used in the ancient world. This conclusion is indirectly supported by the teachings and example of Jesus.

Jesus and Wine. The next logical step was to examine the major wine-related stories or sayings of Jesus since these are commonly used to prove that Christ made, commended, used and even commanded the use of alcoholic wine. In Chapter 5 I went into considerable detail to examine these claims. The conclusion of my analysis is that they are devoid of textual, contextual and historical support.

The "good wine" Jesus made at Cana (John 2:10) was "good" not because of its high alcoholic content, but because it was fresh, unfermented grape juice. This is indicated by external and internal considerations. Externally, contemporary authors, such as Pliny and Plutarch, attest that "good wines" were those which did not intoxicate, having had their alcoholic potency removed. Internally, moral consistency demands that Christ could not have miraculously produced between 120 to 160 gallons of intoxicating wine for the use of men, women and children gathered at the Cana’s wedding feast, without becoming morally responsible for prolonging and increasing their intoxication. Scriptural and moral consistency requires that "the good wine" produced by Christ was fresh, unfermented grape juice. This is supported by the very adjective used to describe it, namely kalos, which denotes that which is morally excellent, instead of agathos, which means simply good.

The "new wine" Jesus commended through the parable of the new wineskins (Luke 5:37-38; Mark 2:22) was unfermented must, either boiled or filtered, because not even new wineskins could withstand the pressure of the gas produced by fermenting new wine.

The self-description of Jesus as "eating and drinking" (Matt 11:19; Luke 7:34) does not imply that He used alcoholic wine, but rather that He freely associated with people at their meals and elsewhere. The phrase "eating and drinking" was used idiomatically to describe Christ’s social lifestyle.

The "fruit of the vine" Christ commanded to be used as a memorial of His redeeming blood (Matt 26:28-29; Mark 14:24-25) was not fermented wine, which in the Scripture represents human depravity and divine indignation, but pure unfermented grape juice, which is a fitting emblem of Christ’s untainted blood shed for the remission of our sins. This conclusion was established through a study of the language of the Last Supper, the Jewish Passover wine, the Passover law of fermentation, the consistency of the symbol and the survival of the use of unfermented grape juice at the Lord’s Supper. Most telling is the fact that Josephus calls the freshly squeezed grape juice "the fruit of the vine." This establishes unequivocally that the phrase was used to designate the sweet, unfermented juice of the grape. The evidences submitted shows that Jesus abstained from all intoxicating substances and gave no sanction to His followers for using them.

Wine in the Apostolic Church. The way the Apostolic Church understood, preached and practiced the teachings of Jesus and of the Old Testament regarding the use of alcoholic beverages provides a most valuable verification and clarification as to whether Scripture teaches moderation or abstinence. In view of the fundamental importance attached to the witness of the Apostolic Church, my next logical step was to examine in Chapter 6 the apostolic teachings regarding the use of wine in particular and of intoxicating substances in general.

This investigation proved to be the most rewarding. Contrary to the prevailing perception, I found that the New Testament is amazingly consistent in its teaching of abstinence from the use of alcoholic beverages. The very passages often used to support the moderationist view, under close scrutiny were found to negate such a view, teaching abstinence instead. For example, the irony of the mockers’ charge that on the day of Pentecost the apostles were drunk on gleukos, that is, on the grape juice which apparently was their common beverage (Acts 2:13), provides an indirect but important proof of their abstmious life-style and inferentially of the life-style of their Master. There would have been no point in the mockers' attributing to unfermented grape juice the cause of the disciples' strange actions, if it was not common knowledge that the apostles abstained from intoxicating wine. The intended jibewas that the disciples were such naíve simpletons they got drunk on grape juice!

Similarly, Paul’s reference to drunkenness at the communion table of the Corinthian church (1 Cor 11:21) offers no support for a moderate use of alcoholic wine, for two reasons. First, whatever was done at Corinth was a departure from the instructions Paul had delivered to the church (1 Cor 11:23); thus, the Corinthians' conduct constitutes a warning rather than an example for us. Second, a study of the meaning of the verb methuo ("satiated") and of the implications of Paul’s admonitions, clearly suggests that the problem at Corinth was indulgence in eating rather than intoxication with alcoholic wine.

I found one of the most powerful Biblical indictments against intoxicating wine in Ephesians 5:18, where Paul condemns wine as the cause of debauchery and shows the irreconcilable contrast between the spirit of wine and the Holy Spirit of God. To my great surprise, however, I found that most English translations and commentaries have chosen to translate or interpret Ephesians 5:18 by making "drunkenness" rather than "wine" the cause of debauchery. This was surprising to me because not only the Catholic and Protestant Italian translations, with which I am most familiar, but also numerous other ancient and modern translations, all translate Paul’s text as saying that in the very nature of wine is debauchery. It seems that some English translators had such a predilection for wine that they decided, to borrow the words of Ernest Gordon, to "save the face of wine while condemning drunkenness."6

The translators’ bias toward wine became most evident in the study of the apostolic admonitions to abstinence, expressed through the verb nepho and the adjective nephalios. The first meaning of the verb is "to abstain from wine" and of the adjective "abstinent, without wine." Yet these words have been consistently translated with their secondary sense of being "temperate, sober, steady," rather than by their primary sense of being "abstinent." Such biased and inaccurate translations have misled many sincere Christians into believing that the Bible teaches moderation in the use of alcoholic beverages, rather than abstinence from them.

It was equally surprising for me to discover that the fundamental reason given by Peter and Paul for their call to a life of mental vigilance and physical abstinence is eschatological, namely, preparation to live in the holy presence of Christ at His soon Coming. This reason has added significance for Christians like the Seventh-day Adventists, who accept the Biblical teachings on the Second Advent literally rather than existentially, that is, as a future realization of our present expectations rather than a present experience of the future. To abstain from intoxicating substances represents a tangible response to God’s invitation to make concrete preparation for the physical return of Christ. The analysis of the apostolic teachings regarding alcoholic beverages presented in Chapter 6, the longest in the book, provides in my view the most compelling defense of the Biblical principle of abstinence from intoxicating beverages.

Some Misunderstood Passages. To be fair to those who find support for their moderationist position in certain Biblical passages, I devoted Chapter 7 to an extensive analysis of five of such passages. The study of each text in the light of its immediate and larger context, the historical customs of the time and the overall teaching of Scripture, has shown that none of them contradict the Biblical imperative for abstinence. On the contrary, some of them indirectly but conclusively support abstinence.

Proverbs 31:6, for example, suggests in an ironical fashion that alcoholic beverages are only suited for killing the excruciating pain of someone who is dying. Similarly, Hosea 4:11 provides no justification for a moderate use of alcoholic beverages for two reasons. First, because "wine and new wine" are mentioned figuratively, as representative of the good gifts God had provided to the children of Israel, gifts which they had used for idolatrous purposes. Second, even if "wine and new wine" were alcoholic, they are condemned in the text for taking away understanding, irrespective of the quantity used.

In a different yet equally convincing way, 1 Timothy 5:23 supports the principle of abstinence in two significant ways. First, the advice, "No longer drink only water," implies that Timothy, like the priests and Nazirites, had abstained until that time from both fermented and unfermented wines, presumably in accordance with the instructions and example of Paul. Second, the apostle recommended to Timothy to use only a little wine, not for the physical pleasure of the belly, but for the medical need of the stomach. Ancient writers such as Aristotle, Athanaeus, and Pliny indicate that unfermented wine was known and preferred to alcoholic wine for medical purposes, because it did not have the side effects of the latter. In the light of these testimonies and of the other Biblical teachings regarding wine, it is reasonable to assume that the wine recommended by Paul for medical use was unfermented grape juice.

The conclusion of this whole study on the Biblical teaching regarding the use of alcoholic beverages can be summarized in one sentence: Scripture is consistent in teaching moderation in the use of wholesome, unfermented beverages and abstinence from the use of intoxicating fermented beverages.




Тема Re: Християните пият ли БИРА ???нови [re: dqdogodo]  
Автор Heпoзнaт® (Архонтствуващ)
Публикувано25.06.07 18:44



Ех, дедо, дедо.... ето ти една дефиниция взета от испанския автор Хулиан Малгоса. Ако не я разбираш на български, мога да ти я изпратя на испански, за да вникнеш по-дълбоко в нея и да прецениш дали християнинът може да е наркоман. Според него наркотиците

"- влияят на мозъка и функциите му
- оставят вредни химически субстанции в организма
- създават навик
Непреките рискове от употребата на алкохол са по-големи, отколкото при който и да е друг наркотик."


Ха наздраве за въздържанието



Редактирано от Heпoзнaт® на 25.06.07 18:45.



Тема Re: Християните пият ли БИРА ???нови [re: zlati777]  
Автор kakata (от Тобосо)
Публикувано25.06.07 18:53



Права си, като се веселим с ближните тук от форума с биричка и цацичка още не сме се изтрепали.






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